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Apr 27, 2005

Insulting Men

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Saamna says that women should dress "properly" and thus avoid provoking men into raping women.

And TOI did come up with a splendid edit in response to it saying,thats just Insulting Men.
Well said TOI.

But then for some, here is the suprise part,
50% of the persons who read Indiatimes, agreed with Sena.

Does this reflect the attitude of Indian, not necessarily.
Does this reflect the mindset of Indiatimes readers, Perhaps.

Here we have a website, which has a new pic of a woman everyday.
Pray will someone explain the logic of it?
I dont say dont put up a pic of a woman, but why ONLY women.
Are there no pictures of men, nature etc which can be interesting and inspiring.

If Sena is objectifying women. And what is Indiatimes doing?
Isn't it insulting men, by saying, the only pics which are suitable for the website will be that of female models?

Afterall should I expect better from its readers when the website suggests that women can celebrate Women's day, by getting Cosmetic Surgery,

Whats worse then Sena's attitude
A hypocritic, holier than thou attitude?


  1. It as if the sena is just looking for a justification for rape, which is really sad. Probably the police constable who raped a minor recently is one of it members!! Oh so do they mean since the 14-year old (hope I got it right) girl was raped, she was dressed provocatively? How more pathetic can it get? I feel so enraged at these so-called protectors-of-our-culture!!!

    Instead of looking at how a girl dresses, why can't these people do some good and try to change the attitude of the society towards girls? Its the way that society treats girls that gets instilled in young boys' minds and they grow up as men who think girls are just fit to be treated as sex-objects!

    Education has improved the attitude of men, but its just not enough. I have also noticed that men in about 20-30 years don't lech at women usually. Its often the older guys who probably have daughters themselves, behave badly. I really don't understand the fun they get by saying some lewd things or trying to fondle a girl. Or in rape. It just seems like an ego/power thing to me.

    Unless the mentality of the men changes, nothing will change. No matter whether you increase a girl's skirt length to a total burkha! Which should actually mean that Pakistan/the countries which insist on burkha-clad women have no rapes at all!

  2. Deeps WELL SAID.

    And well Sena like other political parties just tries to politicise it.
    now if the constable had been a muslim, i think the line could have been different...

  3. Actually the views expressed by indiatimes readers dont surprise me. After that incident i was just talking to friends and was shocked to find that lot of them actually said the same thing as shiv sena.

    And indiatimes has never been a decent publication ( popular? maybe). So no need to take them seriously.

    but what hurts is the, attitude of most of the males, who always put the part of blame in an rape on the female.

  4. well on one hand we have people telling females could be reason and on other hand some saying, rapists need death penalty.

    what many forget is the social stigma for the rape victim. i wonder what the success rate would be for a woman who tell on the matri ads,rape victim.
    similarly there is a deplorable practise of marryin off the victim to the rapist.
    (if someone steals from my house, i wouldnt tell that person, i wont take criminal action against u, be my security guard).

    Whats easy is to tell females dress from head to toe or demand capital punishment for rapists.

    Whats not easy is
    to have an efficient enforcement of the law,
    a reasonable law (already mentioned the absurd parts on the Do u know rape post)
    encouraging women to learn self defense
    ensuring a social support system for the victims
    ensuring the victim receives proper counselling
    speedy legal process
    educating the victim and the general public on the legal process and dos and not to dos while filing the complaint.

    yeah spark, Indiatimes is certainly not known for its "quality" and in my opinion they are not helping either.

    and spark, even if its just with ur friends, taking a stand counts.

  5. Giving death penalty in definately not the soln, and its dangerous also , i mean it may increase the chances of rapist actually killing the victim. If the rapist thinks that by killing the victim he can decrease his chances of getting convicted.
    The solution is to increase the conviction rate in rape cases which is pathetically low (15% i think). A 10 year imprisionment punishment with swift conviction is more logical.

    and g3 did i say that i didn't took a stand? :)

  6. spark i didnt mean to imply u didnt take a stand.
    i assumed u took a stand, and assumed it would have set ur friends thinking even if they might not admit it to you.

    I agree absolutely that death penalty should not be given since it just makes it more risky for the victim.

  7. Sincerely, with all due respect, please also view my blog:

  8. As I see it, women definitely deserve the right to wear whatever they want. Tell me, has it ever happened that a man wearing body-showing outfits has been raped bby a woman? No.

    Its not in the clothes, but in the mentality of the man. Another way to analyse this is the taboo that sex attaches to itself in a country like india. And people(read men) are more than eager to bite in to this forbidden fruit.

    Though wearing proper clothes may be a short term deterrent, its of no use in the long term. The only solution to this problem lies in the male mentality towards women, that has to change.

    Someone once said:
    " treat your java objects like women & not the other way round".

  9. Where does it all stop? In Iran (at least during 80s), women were lashed/killed/harrassed by the religious police for showing a little tuft of hair under their scarf, or for wearing red socks!!

    Perhaps the supporters of the sena think that women will be a lot safer if they were under a all-overing chador?

    BTW, WD, congratulations on getting the code working :-).

  10. I totally agree with for the 50% no. on the TOI survey...we can very well understand it...i mean I cannot even open that website in my office coz of the pictures and the pop-ups. Does it even look like a website of one of India's top newspaper? We can so v well understand what kind of readers they have!

  11. colors agree.
    well rediff has started a similar poll. and i could write in it. hopefully indiatimes virus doesnt spread to other websites:(

    @$#!$# agree:)

    ron.k sure, will visit ur blog:)

    sray well what else can we expect from fundamentalists. (didnt know socks!)

    thanks for the code. (i had to remove the ItemPage and replace with span in my template. that was the prob... Thanks a lot:)

  12. When will the attitude of ppl change,why the hell cant they leave women and the dress code or the moral code as dectated by sena or other political party {can i call them so?? }
    Do they mean that if a girl wears something which is provocative then men are justified to do anything?? what the hell?? who gave them a right to dicate terms to women abt what to wear and how to behave?? just because she is treated as the weaker sex dosnt mean that u can physically abuse her?? Well,then they better know that its not in the dressing but in the damn idotic attitude of such kind of men who just cannot be worth living.
    It might sound out of point but would like to share my exp,one day long ago when i was travelling in a bus the guy who was sitting in the back seat slowly put his hand on me from behind.All i knew was that i stood up and turned around and hit him so hard that his front teeth fell off and even then i couldn control my anger,so made the conducter stop the bus and dragged him on the road to the nearby policestation.And when i got into the bus again i heard it from a corner "well,what is happening to todays girls,they can ignore such things na,why make a issue out of it,well it was a women talking" i dont want to write more,but wish the attitude of both men and women change in such crimes.

  13. I perhaps shouldnt say this: but I sometimes seriously wish that experiences like Neelima's would happen to those women who think like that woman in her post :-(. May be then they will understand, how it feels like.

  14. Sray,there is nothing wrong in what u said,beause i asked the lady the same thing,and she shut her mouth.But unfortunately there exists such women who wouldn want to comeout with such facts of humiliation.well,cant help but curse our so called society and certain values which are inculcated into us from the times we are so many stages gilrs are reminded of how to behave and move and sit and stand.Working in a womens college i see girls from diff backgrounds and my heart weeps for a few incidents..Few years back when we are dealing with stress interviews for MBA students one of the toppers in my class who is supposed to be a go getter broke down in a few min owing to the stress.She just couldn handle it and i had a doubt abt it.When i asked her she said she wouldn be able to talk there but will call me up.and she did,she says when she was a eight year old kid one of her cousins tried to molest her and she got so frightened and went to her mom,unfortunately her mom told her to shutup and not to reveal it to anyone as it would affect family relationships.Well,after all these years also the guy comes home,he is married now but this girl still cant get over the fact that her mom betrayed her.She is unable to accept that the guy is free to move around and whenever he comes home her mom asks her to go into her room or stay away from him..What more can i say?

  15. definitely hypocrisy... by doing this are they supporting the cause of rape... BAAH !!! what bull !!

  16. :(:(.. as they say in India, Neelima, women are women's biggest enemies.

  17. I've read the papers regarding this incident, but never came across any report saying she was wearing something provocative. So why are people assuming she was.

  18. Neels good for you. Now if every girl could be like you , then crimes against women would come down. As for the woman, sray, its just an opinion, and I could be wrong, but its possible that even if it happened to her, she would keep quite. But since its not easy for her to call herself a coward, she probably tries to categorise it as a feminine trait and conditions herself to believe that its ok to not protest.
    But attitudes like these always encourage molestation and rape etc. Since men think if some women dont find it wrong, and natural for men then its not a crime against women. And turns off even men who would want to support women.
    If there is anything worse than being molested/raped, its when you dont find sympathy and support. and its even worse when u dont find it even from ur own gender.

    words fail me when i think of the girl u mentioned neels. betrayal my your own mother, is tough to accept and cope up with, and definitely very traumatic.

    pallavi : Yeah!!

    triplex yes even i didnt come across the dress factor in that case, but this was just a general "warning"or "threat" to girls in Saamna i think.

  19. its again turning into an old hindi saying..." ulta chor kotwal ko daante".

    fully agree with neelima though, women can and must oppose any act that they are not comforatble with.

    But what I ask is, is it fair to say that the affected always adapts? Should it not be that the tormentors made to realise that its them who have to change.

    And let me say another thing. There may be one man in the act, but there are a lot who are simply watching/ ignoring whats going on around them. Equally guilty as the perpetrator.

    A couple of days back I nearly smashed the life out of a guy who was teasing a bunch of girls on a bus. What amazed me though was the numerous "by-standers", first enjoying the guy tease the girls..and then enjoying me beating the s**t out of that guy.

    I am proud not to be a quiet observer. I know that the guy whom I whacked would now think twice before he tries it again..

    Request: If you see any such crime/act going on...don't just ignore it...act as if the victim was your own sister. Believe me, the feeling of helping someone is worth the effort involved.

  20. @$#!$# Well done.

    If you are not against them, you are with them

    Women who want to express solidarity need not think that just because they dont cant or dont want to hit a guy, they have to keep quiet. Even raising your voice helps.

  21. loved the Cat post... commented on it but just making sure you read this too.. it was just what I had in mind... when thinking about how my life should be lead... LOL... wise lessons from a wise being..

  22. I wonder if women in India have started carrying pepper-sprays and things like that.

    Agreed that they are not effective in all situations, and sometimes the humiliated guy might go after the girl with vengeance :(:(... it still might help some girls.

  23. pallavi i get the comments in email too so i would know:) thanks:)
    but thats nothin compared to what u wrote on cats:)and while mentioning the wise, dont forget the donkee:D

    sray, well some might carry. but if used in emergency situations it will definitely help. similarly atleast basic lessons in martial arts too would help i think..

  24. Well,a fewdays back i asked a good friend of mine,what would u do if u see someone being teased or if being attacked by a bunch of idiots,he said,i will leave that place,why should i be involved in such incidents which will drag me into controversy,well,i had no words.I think depend on urself is the best attitude,many a times there will be ppl who will come fwd for help,and women better remember the fact that physically u maynot be strong enough at times but tactics can be used to protect urself and somehow i feel that what women need more is the emotional strength to be able to face it all.I saw it many times that they feel shy or awkward to let it out that they were physically abused,Gaya,this student whom i was mentioning held those scars of the incident for abt 12 years,and imagine,this is a country where psychology is manytimes treated as a synonym for madness,this girl acted strong but she was hurt inside,and she brokedown with a small incident.But gaya,she is happy now,i told her what to do and i dont think i will reveal it here but now the guy dosnt come to her house and she is in a high position in corporate world:)

  25. I am really glad to hear she is better Neels
    You are absolutely right,
    Whats required is emotional strength and courage.

    I think there are some (male and female) who will take the "trouble" to support, but will not take the initiative to protest.

    And there are men like Bapi Sen too, the traffic constable in Kolkatta who died from injuries on New Year Eve few years back, after saving a girl from getting molested from few policemen and sadly the girl never came forwad perhaps due to the lack of social support for victims.

    But ulitmately WE are the society, and our actions count too .
    And its tragic to say the least that while, people dont see anything funny in going to a doctor for diabetes, going for counselling is seen as being insane.

  26. well it is rarely understood by a person when he needs help (like consultation). The very ego does not let you to accept that there may be something wrong with you.

    And the entire stigma in India associated with psychologists (referred by the common man as dimaag ka doctor) drives me insane.

    But yes, I have to agree with neelima. These ppl need to speak out, maybe to friends, who can understand them. Again, as in many cases, they need help, not sympathy.

    Heard this(or something like it) in a song: "jaanta hoon tumhe sahare ki zaroorat nahin, mein to sirf saath dene aaya hoon."


  27. Another problem with the indian society: I see more and more ads on online newssites (e.g. samachar, rediff) where "true love" and blah-blah-blah are being marketed, with the accompanying picture of a scantily-clad woman or a pair of partially-covered breasts etc. I am hardly a prude, but I do think that true love has very little to do with overt sexual appeal.

  28. Well,truelove or love could be never defined but it sure has nothing to do with physical excitement,saw a hoarding in Hyd where a girl in a less to cover and more ot reveal kind of a dress smiling at the passersby.And it was an adv for TOI.i still donot understand why for everything from Razor to Mens suitings they need women models? crazy ya.And one more thing,they dont need sympathy,agreed on that completely,what they need is someone who can understand,who will not make statements, who will be with them when needed but first step is needed to be taken by them.Wish we can see some changes in attitudes soon,and in other words, 'Har choti si kadam ek bade safar ki tharaf badne ka ishara hain ,manzil dhoor hai tho kya,katjaayegi chalthe chalthe"

  29. oh true...

    true love cannot be can't be explained..but can only be felt.

    i'd say true love is what your soul needs, while sex is just a physical need. And every person, male/female, must learn to control his/her desires...this is what is preached by the gita.

    yes, the worst thing is when love is turned into a commodity. And as a result of it you get to see that by using a razor, or by spraying a deo, you get covered by girls...(hell i've used that stupid razor for long enough now to say that the claim is false...;))

    Though oceans are made by drops of water, it sure takes a hell lot of time his way. The small steps are taken, efforts are always made, but then one incident happens and the entire moral ground is shaken..

    So what's important is: trust in god, but still lock you car!

  30. sray yeah its lucidrous to say the least. but the prob, starts when some (not all) think women as just an object for them, along the lines of the latest model in the cellphone. :)

    neels well said:)

    @$#!$# :)) now if other guys would be as smart of you, ad men would be out of business:D

  31. Its not only the ad men but the girls too. Money is important but how far do you go for it? For Eg see the remix videos. There just has to be a scantily clad girl, dancing indecently!!

    Yeah the attitiude change should occur not only in the men, but in the women too...

  32. Deeps, well I dont like the girls in those remix videos and obviously would prefer if it didnt happen. But just because they are scantily clad doesnt give anyone the right to rape them nor rape other girls.

    After all whats worse than dressing in scanty clothes for money, or fame, is raping, molesting or sexual harrassment at work.

    The producers of the remix videos, use women just to appeal to a section of male audiences, and they are just objectifying women. But when they tell someone else to not objectify, well thats what i find more irritating and think a hypocritic atttitude. And hence a similar grudge against Indiatimes.

  33. yeah, gaya;i agree with u.
    why only indiatimes;i feel that the whole
    TOI group consists of hypocrites of the first order!! they just want sensational headlines and have nothing but crap.

  34. Ya WD, a part of the problem is also objectifying women. There should be a certain amount of personal respect associated with a human, and it shud be acknowledged.

    What I find amazing is that no one even mentions about the objectification of men!!!! Don't u see ads where its the male model who's the centre of attraction.

    My point here is not to justify objectification, but just to mention that its pretty fair. There may not be so many videos going around where men bare chests, but some definitely are. Is it that some people find women in less clothes objectionable, but men wearing less clothes is fine!!! Talk about bdouble-standards here.

    Simple thing: Treat every person as a human, and not an object.

    And respect life.

    And finally, think before you act. Your action/inaction can affect another life very adversely.

  35. Kalpesh yes:)

    A valid point on objectification of men.

    But i find men are objectified not just when they come bare chested or whatever but when are seen as a solution to all women's prob , mainly of course the looks and money.

    just as fairness, beauty etc for women, the ads give imp to a man who is earnin etc.

    a topic i ask durin personal discussions how many would be comfortable with a husband who is a homemaker? perhaps a post on it next week.

    agree that all are to be treated as humans, and for me i object equally to all objectifications:)

  36. Agree to what you said Gaya. But if the women/men don't protest to the objectifications, then who else will? Once somebody protests, probably somebody else will join them. But people be it women/men seem to be more into the money than humility..

  37. i think deeps, if we boycott products or cds(in case of music videos) which objectify human beings, it would make a difference.
    other than medicines i cant think of any other essentials, which we cant avoid if we want to avoid.
    generally i do write ad council too in case i find an ad offensive, will give details on it in a post later.

    I remember the campaign on saving animals - when the buying stops the killing ends.

    and individually we can make a difference.


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