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Sep 2, 2010

Shades of Saffron

Dear Mr.Chidambaram (or Chidu),
Sometimes, you ask for the impossible. You want to use the word "Saffron Terror" and still get the support from All of "Us" against those XYZ terrorists. Perhaps you thought, people didn't see red, when I use Red Terror for Maoists. But excuse me, do you see Red in our National Flag? Besides, saffron has many Shades, its not just in our national flag but its also sacred to the Hindus and all right minded humans, including Julia Roberts. So if you thought by using the term, Saffron Terror, you would be alienating those XYZ terrorists from mainstream Hindus, and majority of Indians, you are WRONG. Whats your hidden agenda? You want to be called "Buddhu Chiddu"?

Being an Indian, you should have realised that we have a process for everything, so please follow the due process, and then use the term Saffron Terror, as many times as you please.

1.Prioritize.
Follow the masters, the Fairness Cream Makers. They don't say black or wheatish is ugly, just say fairness is beautiful and associated with success and desired by all.  So sponsor a meet of Hindu leaders and ask them to wear Orange. And coin a phrase "Future of Hinduism, Orange and Bright". See we are not saying anything negative about Saffron, just saying Orange is brighter and better.

2.Symbolise
Make Orange the National Fruit. Point out India is the Diabetes Capital of the World. And point out with charts and cartoons, the glycemic index of Mango is higher than that of Orange. The government cares for the health of its citizen and so we would like to make Orange the new national fruit. And have an Orange India Campaign. Point out Orange is a Pavitra Phal, while Ripe Mangoes is filled with Rich Chemicals. If the Mango growers object, threaten them quietly with "I will not let you export our national fruit".
If you are very scared of controversy, add an Orange colored National Vegetable (Pumpkin or Carrot). Follow the Beta-carotene routine instead of diabetic routine. Specifically point out that Beta carotene is great for eyes and you want Indians to be Visionaries.

3.Subsidise.
When Karunanidhi (Karuna to northies) wanted to encourage Tamil names for Tamil movies, he simply removed the entertainment tax. (50 crores loss is worth the pleasure of an aam admi, not consulting a dictonary to check the meaning of the movie.)
Subsidise all products which use the orange color. If you don't want to actually give the subsidy, just add some loopholes, even accountants won't protest, since they will be making more money. But the important point remains, you will seen as Pro Hindu, Pro Growth not Anti-Saffron. If those from other religions protest and ask for subsidies of Green White or Whatever, point out Orange is not religious but National and Neutral.

4.Internalise
The communists would probably get outraged over the dynastic influence of Dutch over the color propaganda. And the BJP might join them. So get few Swamis (wearing orange) to point out on TV, for centuries, we worshiped Orange since its closer to our fire God Agnidev. And since Orange was targeted by our Invaders, our ancestors used a duller color Saffron, to camouflage themselves. There you go, Two Birds One Stone. Orange is associated with Resistance and History and Fire Power. And Saffron  associated with fear and perhaps cowardice. Which color do you think our Hindus would opt?
Start a rumour, Saffron flower is the symbol of the Stone Throwers of Kashmir.

5.Advertise
Indian Public has lost faith in Police, Politicians, Media & Judiciary. We believe only in advertisements, especially those endorsed by Celebrities.

  • Get Deepika to wear Orange at Cannes, Suggest to Julia's Stylist, Orange is in,
  • Mention to Mukesh Ambani, Mumbai Indians, and therefore Sachin should wear Orange,
  • Pressurise Pawar  to change Men in Blue to Warrriors in Orange (hey the team might lose but Shewag,Dhoni Sachin still sell),
  • Hint to Raj Thackeray, Marathi manoos prefers Oranges to Mangoes.
  • And ask Bappida to sing a tribute to Tagore wearing Orange colors, since "Tagore meditated among orange groves and conceived of a new type of university, desiring to "make Shantiniketan the connecting thread between India and the world." (It will become a hit on Youtube & Internet Hindus will be more benevolent towards Orange.)
  • And get TeleShopping Network to suggest Orange colored Yantra makes the future bright and succesful. (Actually they will probably do it automatically, you don't have to suggest to them.)

6.Proxy Criticise
Next time a Godman is caught in a scandal, get a Godman wearing Orange to say its now a Saffron Shame. If someone objects, let the Orange Godman retaliate with "Sex Swami" is not Shameful?
Make sure SoniaG, BurkhaD and Arundathi don't wear Orange and get few bloggers to wonder why they haven't worn Orange yet.

Thus, after throughly ruining the Significance of Saffron, you can use the term Saffron Terror, Saffron Monster or Saffron Sadists. And you will have an Orange Outrage against those xyz terrorists.  

But then, those xyz terrorists might object to you, for associating them with Saffron.

79 comments:

  1. I guffawed loudly when I read this post. Really how mundane are politicians and their objections.

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  2. hiii
    yaar must say u r just too good in writing satires! loved every bit.. this marathi manoos crap has gone too far..
    keep writing!

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  3. hummingwords well its not just about marathi manoos..:)

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  4. Thanks blue periwinkle:)

    It would be nice if those who rate, mention their names, otherwise it would seem like I am the one rating:)

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  5. Yoooo hooooo Another one penned or shud i say typoed beautifully.. I could never understand the problem or the hype that took off about SAFFRON when i read in the news ..

    How stupid can one be, By the way Saffron is also the colour used by Sikhs a lot, and our revolutionaries also used it to show nationalism and loyalty to country RANG DE BASANTI CHOLA,

    as you said saffron comes in lot of shades..

    I must say the point you have made out, hope Chiddhu bhai reads it he he he
    was laughing toooo... hey hey hey
    you forgot to mention ANU MALIK i saw bappi and roberts etc .. he can also copy some music WD he hehee

    Excellent

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  6. bikram, i wrote anu malik in previous post, so didn't want to give him over exposure
    I could have written get Anu Malik to wear saffron on Indian Idol, maybe:)

    the hue and cry depends on when it happens. if it happened on tv busy day, it would be ignored by all.

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  7. hhehe.. buddhu chiddu ..nice..and bappi again :P..while readin i was expecting something related to shoe throwing..

    well I dont want to repeat the routine appreciations...i know by now u wld have got bored of them also..

    but want to appreciate on 2 things
    firstly giving references to actual facts.
    1) It really shows how good you are at reacting to real life incidents
    2) Educates ignorant people(includes me) on the real facts.
    secondly
    you give a good structure to your post..I am sure a lot thinking goes into this. Were you good at writing term papers/reports in college? Am sure you u'd

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  8. unknown, i think now shoe throwing has become passe. bappi gets the honour due to his amazing youtube video to mj.

    routine appreciations never bore me because, i have had my share of abuses for my views on the blog, and so appreciate appreciations, except the empty ones by people who don't read the post:)
    (I think if I had written this post in a different website, it would have been filled with abuses)

    well i try to integrate what I read with what I write. and sometimes do research on even silly things to get them right. for eg when i had to write a story for a website on law and sexual harassment I had a rainbow in the story. and i went and read, all the technical things related to it. which direction, when exactly etc, so that i won't make a mistake, even in passing. its kind of compulsive for me, getting it right
    and getting it to fit.

    i notice structure but more from an autistic point. like i will appreciate a good screenplay in a movie, and see patterns in words when others write. And I don't know how to write without forming a pattern of thoughts in my mind.

    No I was definitely not good in poetry or with words in schools. But I would be good in essays, in the sense I would think differently. For eg if its autobiography of a bicycle I would write about a bicycle featured in an ad etc. Even now I always feel my forte is not my words, but just sincerity and occasional brilliance:D(see i am not humble and modest).
    But I work hard for the occasional brilliance by reading whats happening around me. Indiatogether.org and InfochangeIndia.org for real news then TOI IE IBN NDTV and Outlook for regular news & few Tweets for trends. And the int ones like CNN BBC and morning shows websites because they are kind of pleasant GMA, Today and Early show. And then just for my entertainment The about.com's best of late night jokes.

    But since you mention structure, I am really good at documentation. Professionals frequently compliment me on that. Thats one of the reasons why I have avoided paying bribes at govt office.

    Actually I am intellectually stupid, and emotionally immature. but instead of taking it as a label, i try to work around it. sort of like hare and tortoise. the tortoise may not always win, but it doesn't say no to the race. :)

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  9. Outrageous, how a controversy can stem out of any thing! May be our politicians should refrain from making any verbal remarks whatsoever.

    You've made a nice satirical piece out of it. I agree with the two points Unknown!!! has made.

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  10. thanks destiny's child, appreciate it:). but i am not sure if unknown refered to my links in this post or earlier posts:)

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  11. boss. india is progressing despite these bums politicians..every indian who is a success story has got it thru hard efforts and bureaucratic hurdles..if any american is in trouble outside the country, the country will act to protect him..come to the Gulf n c 4 yrself how many workers struggle for livelihood..which indian politician ever bothered? v cant blame them but ourselves..oh god what a subject u brought in yar..

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  12. WD :)..I meant the links..from all ur posts..earlier ones and this( the tamil title tax rebate)..infact i mentioned that in a comment in the previous post also...here i just explained..how it wld benefit others..
    ..abt abuses n appreciations..u dont have comment moderation..that means u r open to take both..good!
    and hatsoff to u on that point..doing research for a silly thing..shows ur dedication to present the right content..
    we can see how humble and modest u r from the last part of ur comment :)..

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  13. unknown, i understood you what you meant by the links. i think it was in a post related to rotten grains. perhaps dimpyrahul post.

    abuses, well its rare in blogspot but i meant o3.indiatimes.com where no login was reqd. but to be fair i had fun and friends there too.

    on moderation, spam i delete but abuses, well it just shows how stupid the person is.

    on humility and modesty, i know what i am ,so i am. its not a choice:) seriously.

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  14. ramesh i think comparitively kerala at least thinks of doing. but you are right. the image of nris is those earning in lakhs and a rat who has deserted the ship.

    few bother about them. i read about Australia spending a lot to save one American teenager who had gone missing while yachting. In India its only VIPs who matter...

    but i have a feeling you didn't read the post:D

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  15. You are becoming dangerous with every passing day ;)

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  16. tarun, safely dangerous, safely dangerous:)

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  17. WD,

    I wont repeat ooh-aahs once again. You bowl everyone of us. Your takes are brilliant and the fact that you combine various facts and create a satirical medley about a single issue/view is amazing.

    1. I just liked your take on Fairness cream. They dont claim black is ugly!! yeah!! My post on the same topic, someone with a link back to the link you provided, commented, when people buy tanning creams to tan them, why are you making a fuss out of fairness creams. I replied back "they dont guarantee success!!"

    2. The next one i loved is the Karunanidhi part.

    Oh!! overall I liked your 6 point strategy to Buddhu Chiddu :-)

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  18. Insignia, how many matrimonial ads we see asking for fair brides. and how many heroines are dusky or wheatish. tanning is not the same as fairness. because even in us, racism exists.

    well in a way i was sick of english titles for tamil movies. and its the same with hindi movies. perhaps its for market abroad or whatever but heart does yearn for an Indian title. but I don't know if its worth 50cr. Btw they had a scheme that if the girl's name is of tamil origin parents would get half gram gold ring or something like that.some steps are needed to protect language, but its easy to get over zealous. i feel first the basic food clothing shelter healthcare and education then culture.

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  19. True..that was my point as well. They claim success and fame and confidence from fairness creams. The very fact that we are obsessed with fair skin is their advantage.

    I hope you didnt misinterpret my statement when i said "They dont claim black is ugly!! yeah!!" I was merely being sarcastic :-)

    Oh yes, I share the same view as you. Its not appealing to have English titles just for being cool. But at the same time, its funny when they name a movie in pure Tamil just for the sake of saving some money, even though it doesnt fit in.

    Take the case of "Endhiran". Its a sci-fi movie; "Robot" sounds much better :-) All said, its the budget constraint. But yes, taking initiatives to protect ones language and culture is fine, but that could be in a back seat and things would be nicer if they concentrated on providing basics of life.

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  20. insignia, i never even imagined you would say ugly is black! even if you had not mentioned your post, it wouldn't have even crossed my mind!

    i agree with ethiran but it was so stupid with Jeans while gentleman and boys were ok. all same director.
    i read because of this incentive couple of movies like shashikumar types got made..so in a way ok. but still so much lost over a technical thing like name. the k family is too much into movies.

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  21. :-) Naming a movie "Jeans" was ridiculous. I thought later there would be movies by name "Cotton", "Lycra", "Chiffon".....:-D

    Oh why not? The K family need a way to convert black cash to white. So the movies! W.r.t this, everyone would proclaim "Black is beautiful" :-P Hahahaha.

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  22. lol i never thought of that black angle:)
    i think jeans might have been for genes. but have never had it verified. its not as if ash was living in jeans. i think thats the 2nd most ridiculous title.
    the first one is haan mein ne bhi pyar kiya hai. its the stupidest corniest movie ever:)
    chalo its goodnight from me:)

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  23. Read few times. LOL..very nice

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  24. WDM,

    Hahaha!

    But the orange theory suffers from a small flaw. When raw/unripe/immature, oranges are some other color. And well as it can be seen, that color cannot be associated with terror. :)

    People would confused if such green terror would be that ushered in by environmentalists who (very indirectly) say that let's not produce electricity, let's not use fertilizers & pesticides, let's not build nuclear power plants, let's not use automobiles, let's not build roads, let's not build concrete buildings, let's not make new vaccines, new drugs. So that we cannot effectively build new schools, colleges, hospitals, research facilities, shops, multiplexes, railway stations - & what not - all that sustains economy & also the human life. Environmentalists don't mind people dying & killing others (purportedly) out of frustration. Well, that is terrifying enough. But another cause of confusion that the term 'green terror' could cause is in its implicating the religion of peace, and of course, when it comes to religion of peace, terror has no religion, right?

    My tweet that had perhaps spurred you into writing this was pointing out exactly this double standard. Irrespective of what clarifications were issued by PC or maybe not issued, by 'Saffron terror', it was specifically meant 'Hindu terror'. If red-->communism, saffron-->? Surely, one couldn't have meant that the color red was responsible for the ideology?

    Anyway, I leave this part of argument here.

    Insignia & WDM,

    I find fair skin color better looking. If given that two people are exactly identical in all attributes (intelligence, knowledge, tact, experience, wisdom, etc.), then I would be attracted more to a person with fairer skin.

    Likewise, if two women are exactly identical in above respects, then again I'm likely to choose someone with fairer skin as my wife.

    But having said that, I must assert, that at least I'm aware of this bias that I harbor, so in my social interactions I pay greater attention to it, so that I don't end up discriminating unjustly.

    But one more thing I wanted to point out is, fair skin color is not the only genetically determined attribute that's used for discrimination against people. There's height (can someone realistically imagine a 5' lead male [as typical macho hero] against a taller woman? Or, someone with Sachin Tendulkar's voice hosting KBC instead of someone with Amitabh's voice?...

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  25. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  26. ...Can we imagine someone with Rani Mukherjee's voice selling music albums like someone with Shreya Ghoshal's voice? And, I'm not even getting into products that guarantee success (of different kind, of course) based on (largely) genetically determined size of body parts. Yes, I agree that skin color's an obsession. But let's be careful, perhaps this attraction towards the fairer skin could be (not necessarily) be an outcome of evolution. In which case, countering it without explaining the cause to people, wouldn't help much.

    I firmly believe that to remove certain prejudice, it needs to acknowledged that that prejudice exists. And when I say 'exist', I mean, to acknowledge its existence in one's own mind (& not in the society).

    E.g., in my daily social interactions, I find people being exquisitely suspicious of Muslims, but the proportion of bloggers who admit to this prejudic is incredibly low! How does this transition occur? It is because when the voice against this prejudice becomes too shrill (which is not so much the case with current blog post), people internalize these prejudices, somewhat struggle with them, but never admit to them wholly. And what they do not admit to being in possession of, they cannot discard.

    Let's examine the very same matrimonial ads that you're referred to.

    Will you find the following words?

    1. Beautiful - check
    2. Handsome - check
    3. Loyal - check
    4. Mentioning income - check
    5. Intelligence - check.
    6. Convent-educated - check.

    All of the above 6 traits have a genetic/hereditary component to it. If I say, "intelligence guarantees success" or that "I want intelligent lady as my wife", am I not discriminating against those less intelligent [when last read, I'd come to know that 80% of IQ is determined by parents' intelligence - perhaps, exactly like skin color]? Shall I stop using intelligence as criterion to judge & value people in my life?

    But what needs to be pointed out is that it's prudent to have skin color very low in one's priority list. Because skin color does not determine how much we enjoy conversations, or the ability to think & plan - which are likely to determine 'success' of both a marriage or an employee (& eventually, the employer).

    If one concludes that this discrimination's based on racism or because of silly ads, then they're being mistaken....

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  27. ...I remember my primary school English teacher saying that "it's said Mumtaz Mahal (Shah Jahan's wife) was so fair that one could see the bolus of paan passing through her throat".

    If we dig through Hindu mythology we might find references to someone being considered attractive because of their fair skin color.

    Reason I'm pointing this out is because I don't think we can counter such discrimination simply by coming up with "dark is beautiful", perhaps, more important thing that needs to be pointed out is "beauty is only skin deep", in other words, what matters is substance over form. And what constitutes 'substance' is for each individual to determine after careful thinking.

    [I guess, I'd made very similar points somewhere. If that happens to be this blog itself, then please pardon me! :D ]

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  28. I hope our dear politicians read it and have some shame. Maybe you can ask some National daily to publish this piece.

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  29. What does colour have to do with terror? Maybe blood red would have been appropriate, coz that's what it stems from (blood-boil) and results in (bloodshed). And Chiddu (like the nickname), what was he thinking when he made a comment like that! He didn't see what was coming?

    All said and done, loved your take on it and your interesting suggestions on why orange would have been a safer choice, though red would have been more appropriate!

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  30. rgb actually i hate the nickname. its a media creation. i hope someone doesn't start with buddhu-chiddu my creation. then i will really sob!

    holy lama, i don't think they would. but thanks for the vote of confidence.

    thank you A

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  31. 1.Ketan have you READ my orange theory. I never said associate terror with orange color. I listed out steps to "demonize saffron color". I am really suprised at your comment.

    2.On green terror, while i have think its pointless to generalise for and against environmentalists, i agree its bound to cause confusion.

    3.I had pointed out the double standards of the complaining people towards color. my point it would be easy to manipulate.

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  32. 4.There is a difference between choosing your wife and choosing an assistant. You know that no 2 individuals can be equal in all respects except color. so the point is, how much importance do you give to the color.

    5.There is a difference between choosing a wife, a personal decision and an assistant. For eg, you can start with receptionist and say hey there are people who are less informed than me, and so i would prefer a fairer receptionist.

    6.Or you might decide to hire a fairer assistant simply because you think, fairer is smarter. or you promote a fairer person because you think they have more chances of success or whatever.

    in 5 & 6 you are just being a racist by thinking a darker peson is not beautiful enough and not competent enough. and fairness cream manufacturers say its ok if this happens. you will get the job, or you will be more successful and more people will notice you positively.
    they reinforce the bias.

    6.Aamir Khan Tom Cruise all are not of great heights. There was a hollywood article on how many leading men are shorter in American standards.

    7.You might point out Rani Mukherjee, someone might point out Himesh Resh....

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  33. 8.Existence of other biases do not justify a bias.
    (Amitabh btw had mentioned he was worried about his looks, on whether it would be accepted).

    9.Upper castes people might be comfortable with upper castes people and there are many who think they are smarter than lower castes. But its not ok if they started hiring and promoting with caste as a criteria. thinking an upper caste person can bond and function better with other upper caste clients etc. or since the upper caste is smarter he/she will be better at the job. And it will be deplorable if a cream says its ok if the upper castes feel that way, all you have to do is apply all over yourselves this caste cream and you will be viewed by upper castes as themselves.

    I protest both against the bias and the cream advertisement which reinforces the bias.
    Perhaps I might not object to the cream if they said that chances of success otherwise too would b equal.
    I am aware that from energy drinks to soaps, the ad stance is only us. but there is a diff between what it endorses.

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  34. My best "read" on this post was that it was a lighthearted jab at both PC and the protectors of saffron's honor. I couldnt match some of the comments to this read of the post so its also likely I am wrong.

    I found the fair and lovely thing to be peripheral to the topic but note Ketan's comment here.

    Unusual among a host of net commenters, his stated preference for fairness is honest and matches much of the real world I experience around me. The disconnect i find between the blogworld and real world is bridged by a few commenters like Ketan.

    I have internalized this preference too, inspite of the fact that I myself am significantly less than fair-complexioned- ie. I consider it very likely that other factors being equal a man that is fairer than me will be preferred to me, in social interactions, by many if not most Indian women if they have the perfect freedom to make that choice.

    thanks,
    Jai

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  35. I appreciate Ketan's honesty but do like WiseD's response to Ketan. I thought his point was limited to social interactions not professional.

    On re-reading his comment I found that he suggests some evolutionary basis for a preference for fairness. I am reminded of some posts by somebody called kupamanduka on similar lines a few yrs ago.

    Ketan do be careful in thinking through those lines. Evaluate how much you are trying to argue towards a pre-determined conclusion and how much you let objective fact speak for itself.

    I'd think blaming genes/ evolution is escapist, the biases I have are essentially mine, with my cultural background and upbringing possibly having a minor part in it.

    Another blogger Rohit P balanced this by stating his personal preference for dark skin. But if there is a broad social consensus that goes the other way, there are consequences to being the "wrong skin color" and individual counter examples are of little relief.

    thx,
    Jai

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  36. ketan suspicion is of anything we think as unfamiliar. and to add to it some members of the society, encourage the bias with tales and statements and it becomes a subcons. belief.

    but when we become adults its upto us to choose our beliefs.

    there are some who would like to reinforce their biased belief by noticing only the behaviours that endorse their belief. psychologically its the "I was pushed, You fell". day to day you can see it in parents who believe their children are angels while the friends are the polluting influence.

    On people not voicing their suspicions. well, there might be those who have been frightened of monsters in the dark and who might be apprehensive of darkness, but its not necessary that they should insist with others that monsters of the dark exist.

    krishna and shiva are not exactly light skinned.

    while answering i have not answered just you(so no need to point out i didn't raise that or say that) since it would be convenient for me to not type everything in some other post in the same context:)


    If all other circumstances were the same, if an A who is from abc is suspicious and acts out his/her bias against X from xyz group , i believe if the A had been from xyz group, he/she would be suspicious of abc group and not xyz group.

    Bias is simply an excuse to intellectual laziness and lack of humanity.

    Many (not all) of those who raise their voice against saffron terror would have raised their voice against the term islamic terror, and wouldnt have cared if they had heard the term saffron terror.

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  37. Ketan you point out that color cannot be equated with terror at all times. agreed.
    then come up with a term for those idiotic hindus who indulge in terror in the name of hinduism.

    My problem with many of those who object to the term "Saffron Terror" is this. They don't think its obscene if Ram Sena has goons, who hit girls. They don't think Sex Swami and other Godmen who are just criminals use the saffron color to hide their intentions. Its the selective process that reflects their hypocrisy.
    I agree its not necessary to protest in all platforms to prove their loyalty.
    But I am cynical of their loyalty towards Hinduism, and believe its just their loyalty towards their ego.

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  38. On matrimonial ads, beauty and handsome are subjective, while most in the world would believe Princess Di was more beautiful than Camilla , Prince Charles thought otherwise.

    On loyalty well i don't see many ads asking for loyalty, but how does one verify loyalty in advance? loyalty to parent over self when it comes to making a choice?

    On Income, I have protested against dowry and lopsided marriage expenses and advocate more men should become homemakers. And this bias doesn't mean its ok if other biases exist.

    Intelligence is mentioned but still its subjective. What means intelligence to one need not be the same to the other. I think people look for smartness which includes a social skillset and not just IQ.

    Convent educated is definitely an absurd bias. Just like people hiring and networking only from their old school or whatever..thinking only they can be better. your doon school syndrome or whatever. i think abroad in olden days girls used to go to some swiss finishing schools to become marriage material and here we think convent educated girls have more etiquette or better accents or whatever.

    Marriage is a personal choice, but when pqr thinks mno is making a stupid choice, pqr can definitely voice their opinion on the stupidity of mno.

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  39. jai c and ketan,
    various levels of expression when it comes to bias.
    1.realising one has a bias

    2.Admitting on public forums about the bias. (not easy)

    3.Admitting and working on erasing the bias (tougher:D)

    4.Admitting yet insisting that the bias is harmless to others.

    5.Admitting bias and saying it appear be wrong but its a fact and it OKAY.

    6.Admitting bias and saying its OKAY because of my personal experiences till now. And its probably a FACT. (I might say you may think its ridiculous but till now all the people who wore orange, were unfaithful to me so I will be biased if someone wears orange)

    7.Admitting the bias, acting on it as a matter of personal choice. (I don't want to buy orange colored soap orange doesn't make me feel good)

    8.Admitting the bias and acting on it irresponsibily. Not hiring someone because they wore orange.

    9.Pretending to fight the bias while acting on it. (Criticising those who admit their bias against orange, but discriminating privately on orange in 7 & 8 scenarios).

    10.Being aware of the bias and working on erasing it, yet fighting the bias on public forums.

    And each bias its possible that one has a different number.
    =========================================
    When it comes to ME, I am a southie who grew up in mumbai, and while in south i might be fairer skin, in north i am the dark skinned. so aware of the contrast in both the perception.
    Would i prefer to be fairer. NO.
    Would i prefer to be darker. (I don't know but i don't think let me not go out in the sun, otherwise i might get tanned. there are so many girls who are good at sports yet don't play because their parents think it will spoil their marriage chances).
    But to get back to would i PREFER being darker, i wouldn't go out and buy a darkening cream just for the same reason i won't buy a whitening cream. i am comfortable with my skin. But if i get dark or tanned or whatever i will accept it and still won't buy a lightening cream, thinking let me get back to my older skin.

    When it comes to others.
    A. Beauty. I can't think of one person whom i thought was beautiful just because they are fair. But if someone asks me to choose a picture one in which they are lighter and then the other in which they are darker and ask me which is beautiful, all other things being same, I would probably be confused and if i had to choose, would choose one thats like them most of the time. Fairness is overrated even in bias. And there is more to bias than just the initial reaction. (Purist of course would say initial reaction is also bias). But in the above example, someone might think the fairer photo looks better. but after some scrutiny, might say hey the darker photo is not that bad, and on further scrutiny say, hey there is no difference. both are just your pics and same angle, etc.

    B. on fair skin and competence, the answer is an easy no. no explanations i think is reqd.

    ==================================
    When it comes to forums.
    The reason I scream at the bias is simple, i have seen how it affects and destroys lives. seriously. And it doesn't help when wheatish skin people believe they are inferior and get intimidated. And I hope some kid someday would read it and say, hey not all think I am inferior.

    and well there are women who wouldn't care if you were lighter or darker.
    ============================
    jai you might think that a lighter you would be better for others or for you, but i think deep within you know the truth.
    as i said earlier. i am scared of the dark due to all the ghost stories that i have been fed, but i try to fight it and not insist that its the truth.

    the darkness is not an euphemism. i am scared of darkness, besides plenty of other phobias.

    ReplyDelete
  40. phew~...what a discussion...
    first of all should say thanks to Ketan..for putting down his views..which I believe was honest..that let gyaan flow out from our WD.
    -----
    WD~..while reading all your comments..I was imagining myself sitting in my classroom ...and u as teacher(Shrek donkey :P..a serious n wise one) with a stick on one hand explaining all the different biases..n ur opinions..
    -----
    I've personally experienced discrimination of all sorts ..religion,skin color,sex etc...
    -
    I want to comment on one thing on Ketan.
    ..having a preference for one quality doesnt mean discriminating others who are perceived to be lesser in that quality...thats your choice..but it should not be universalized, which sadly has been happening..cos of which those perceived as lesser by a few..have to live like some losers and blame only GOD for being born like that, which was not their choice..
    ----

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  41. jai
    there is a difference between choosing a client and being logical within the case like a lawyer
    and being logical about a case like a judge who sees both points of view. in the long run, the judge might be viewed as unfair, if consistently he delivers verdict on only one point of view.
    Its not quantity but also quality that determines the fairness, and of course its entirely possible only innoncents had been brought before the judge and he has to set them free. and it wold be be indeed deplorable if a judge think i had set my last 10 accused free, let me send this one to jail.
    its not easy to be fair and its tougher to be viewed as fair.

    Speaking as a Hindu and an individual, I don't feel offended by the saffron terror remark as much as the Ram Senas and casteism. If a hindu group, criticises and acts against these elements and then says, its offended by the saffron terror remark, i am definitely going to view it less cynically and skeptically, however wrong i may be.

    But till then, i am not going to give them, the importance i would give to a lawyer vs that of judge.

    PS : Ketan sorry i am biased, if another xyz blogger writes for and against environmentalists, and if there comes a case when xyz supports environmentalists and you oppose environmentalists, i am going to doubt your validity more than that of the xyz blogger initially. (environment again is not an euphemism for islam, just in view of what u wrote in comments about them).
    but if you choose to not marry an environmentalists,thats your choice,though i might mutter why did he reject such a lovely bride, because she was an environmentalist:)
    and might even assure other environmentalists, they are many out there who would view them as environmentalists. And yes i would also wish you a happy married life, (and not a life of regret over not marrying an environmentalist) even if that is a contradiction.

    ReplyDelete
  42. unknown, jai and ketan.
    to summarise in a better way

    1.one might like akshay kumar for whatever reasons or excuses

    2.and one might watch a movie, just because it has akshay kumar in it.

    3.and one might dislike ajay devgan because one thinks he is anti-akshay and avoid ajay devgan movies simply because he stars in it.

    4.But its another to say all akshay kumar movies are smart and all ajay devgan movies are dumb.

    5.and next time the above akshay kumar fan who appreciates only akshay kumar movies recommends an akshay kumar movie, i am less likely to be influenced by that fan, than a person who says, akshay kumar and ajay devgan both act in good and bad movies, but the latest movie of akshay kumar is good. And its not necessary that I will agree with every movie review of the non-akshay kumar fan. but i am more likely to believe the non-akshay fan than the akshay fan when it comes to the statement on a good akshay kumar movie.

    I am not going to come tear down the akshay kumar poster but if someone keeps on saying only akshay kumar movies are better, i am going to say hey that seems stupid:)

    And while its one thing to have a hairstyle similar to akshay kumar ,its not the same even if in principal its the same, to get your face altered like akshay kumar.

    again akshay kumar was just an example. its not intended to hurt the sentiments of akshay fans. or make fun of his movies

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  43. THERE IS ANOTHER KIND OF AKSHAY KUMAR FAN, WHO WOULD WATCH A PIRATED MOVIE OF AKSHAY KUMAR AND CLAIM HE DOES IT BECAUSE HE IS A FAN OF AKSHAY KUMAR. I LOATHE THIS CATEGORY. And I will question not just their review of Akshay kumar movie, but their DEVOTION to akshay kumar.

    ReplyDelete
  44. Hi WiseD,

    Thanks for the elaborate responses.

    0. May I propose another level of bias:

    11. having a bias, knowing and acting accordingly much of the time but pretending in public life and on record to not have it- perhaps even condemning it to be politically correct.

    1. "...there is a difference... its tough to be fair..."

    Absolutely agree. dont quite see what part of my comment brought this on, but anyways agree.

    2. " speaking as a hindu... however wrong i may be ..."

    Again I did not see why this is being addressed to me, but it is true I could have clarified my stand earlier on "saffron terror".

    I am absolutely not bothered by the label saffron/ orange/yellow whatever attached. In fact I think its quite ok to describe hindutva terror by the saffron terror label.

    I could not get this read from your main post, there seemed to be some ambivalence ie. some of it seemed to be directed at PC too. This impression may have been reinforced by earlier commenters commending you on "buddhu chidu" and your reply.

    If this upsets you and you are making this categorical statement in clarification, I do appreciate it and withdraw any suggestion that you were criticizing Chidu.

    thanks,
    Jai
    PS: My ID gets reflected in different ways here for reasons I dont know.

    ReplyDelete
  45. Okay you covered my scenario 11 already at point 9. I was confused by the usage "acting on it".
    -Jai
    My Id is gonna come out different this time since I am signed in, I think.

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  46. this thing overwrote my prev comment... aargh!
    -Jai

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  47. i am disappointed with mr.p.c, jai.
    but don't feel insulted by mr.p.c.
    i am won't say he is wrong but i felt he was unwise. he should have known now the spotlight has shifted from the terror to simply the term.

    i am not going to change my kid if i just label him a bad child. its easier to change if i point out that the behavious is bad, and that he/she must alienate that behaviour to be good.
    and this logic doesn't have anything to do with my religious affliations but common sense.
    respect need not mean agreeing to it. I am not saying be less merciful with these terrorists but just be more careful. Its sad, Mr.PC has come out as a villain of hinduism than those terrorists.

    ReplyDelete
  48. much more briefly the 2nd time around:

    thanks WD for the elaborate responses. your response exclusively directed at me confused me since I couldn't see what aspect of my comment you were responding to.

    anyways I agree with the " lawyer/judge " para.
    and re. the next para about saffron terror:

    I have no issues whatsoever with that label, i think its fairly acceptable.

    thx,
    Jai

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  49. jai, i have ur comment as email even when it doesn't appear here. if you want i can post it.

    ReplyDelete
  50. Wow my initial read was correct!

    re "...he should have known now the spotlight has shifted from the terror to simply the term..."

    WiseD, dont you think it was deliberate? I've read elsewhere that PC was uncomfortable getting kudos from BJP for his tough-on-Maoists drive while his own party command were ambivalent, or even slightly critical. PC needed to put some distance btwn himself and the BJP:

    lo presto the saffron remark.

    I may be overreading this but I see (imagine?) a mischievous smile on PC's lips as he gets the reaction he wants :-)

    okay i'm almost spamming this thread. going to keep quiet for a while.

    thx,
    Jai

    ReplyDelete
  51. loved the satire. and of course the comment galore. Everything has been said what I wanted to say. great write up

    @ Insignia, I commented about racism existence in India too on one of your posts. well, I am not alone to think that way I guess :)

    ReplyDelete
  52. instead of wasting space as post, its back to its place in comments. its about my point on perception bais and loyalty and love
    if people can make meaning out of it then great.

    Will the real Akshay Kumar Fan,Please stand up
    Please stand up, Please stand up.
    Will the real Akshay Kumar Fan,Please stand up
    Please stand up, Please stand up.

    ABC! you think not all Akshay movies are great
    Please go away Please go away
    DEF! you see AjayD movies too!and like some of them too!
    Shoo move away, Shoo move away

    GHI! You see only Akshay movies and think all are great
    Hey you great, just too great
    But you won't write a review only they are great
    Please don't wait, Please don't wait

    JKL! You adore Akshay movies But only they are great, you can't tell!
    Please go to hell, Please go to hell.
    MNO! You won't trust a review, if written by Akshay Fan
    Why are you here? Whats your plan?

    PQR! You think there is more to life than just Akshay movies!
    You are crazy, just too crazy
    STU! You would like AkshayK but still would want to be you
    We need more, Akshayness should ooze from your pore.

    XYZ! You adore Akshay, And would do anything for him!
    Even if its pirated, You watch only his movies & adore him
    And you are willing give to him only him a good review
    Excellent now thats a brilliant view.
    Oh you are the real akshay fan, Please do stay,
    On his latest movie,& Akshay,let me hear your say!


    Oh ZAB! you are Akshay's secret fan,
    But pretend to your friend's you are hardcore Ajay D 's Fan!
    Oh maybe you are right its very brave, very brave
    To watch AjayD & thrash it annonymously, oh so brave.


    Jai, i agree that there is a possibility that one who speaks against environmentalist might be eco conscious while there might be some on the blogs who might speak for environment and yet not be eco-conscious in real life. but that doesn't mean everyone will fit into these 2 categories only. hypocrisy might exist for sake of popularity or shame .and tribute might payed through words but not actions.
    But, that doesn't change the fact that a lawyer is not going to be viewed as a judge when it comes to fairness.(pun asbolutely unintended )

    ReplyDelete
  53. I am really laughing aloud on this one! What crap really people come up with, and it takes someone like you to make some piece out of it! enjoyed thoroughly

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  54. jai, terrorism is serious. whatever the excuse or color. to play politics with it is deplorable. but the holier than thou attitude perhaps seems more deplorable to me.

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  55. hahaha..what was the akshay,ajayD song :))..

    i've never read so much about perceptions,biases n attitudes in my behavioral sciences class also...
    Thanks :)

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  56. unknown the akshay rap, is the result of the structure which you have noted i give importance to. if someone wanted to argue, i thought it would be easier to point to a particular line and say i am this, i hate that, i dislike but still think thats ok or whatever:D

    anyway a different post on it isagain on its way. perhaps after couple of days, i would post it. its on male homemakers:)

    ReplyDelete
  57. One final comment :-)

    "Jai,... i agree enviro/ eco ... not 2 categories.."

    Help!

    1. I never even spoke about environmentalists/ whatever. Have you confused me with Ketan?

    2. The way you have structured the response makes it appear (to me) as if you are directly responding to, actually countering, something I said.

    I agree with what you say but its becoming tiresome positioning me apriori like this :-(
    I would like to know which part of my comments, posted or unposted, give this impression of only 2 categories etc.

    If you wish to make a general point doesnt it go better without the
    "Jai, I agree.. but [point you wish to make]"

    Why not just [point you wish to make]?

    If this is your usual conversational style and you are not imputing positions to me that I have not taken, I apologize. I will catch on after reading more of your posts and comments.

    Thank you for the discussion.

    Please, please dont go
    "Jai, I agree but Akshay should be judged on his talent"
    now :-)

    bye all,
    Jai

    ReplyDelete
  58. ..and please do post the comment that got lost somehow, if its not too much trouble. I'd like to check and let others on this thread check as well, if anything in it led to a perception of 'only 2 categories' etc.

    thanks again.
    Jai

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  59. jai generally i am more coherent:)
    instead of thinking and then replying, i went on wondering while replying due to personal circumstances.

    the akshaykumar was my point of view to unknown.

    i didn't confuse with ketan on eco but just mentioned it to illustrate my point of view.

    i would like to add one more point on the so called hypocrisy over feeling and expressing.
    i support the concept of male homemakers and in a stage, had earned while asking my spouse to take a break. but i won't guarantee that if i go to a party, i won't feel anxious while introducing him as a homemaker. whatever the source of my anxiety, when it comes to forum and in real life, i will still stand by the right of a man to be a homemaker.
    similarly, just because one feels something negative over one's skin color doesn't mean one has to support racism on online forums.
    even if its a stumbling walk, i think it ok if one walks the talk. i thought both you and ketan perhaps had overlooked this point when you talk about gap between real and blog world.

    ReplyDelete
  60. Hi WiseD,

    Thanks for the elaborate responses.

    0. May I propose another level of bias:

    11. having a bias, knowing and acting accordingly much of the time but pretending in public life and on record to not have it- perhaps even condemning it to be politically correct.

    1. "...there is a difference... its tough to be fair..."

    Absolutely agree. dont quite see what part of my comment brought this on, but anyways agree.

    2. " speaking as a hindu... however wrong i may be ..."

    Again I did not see why this is being addressed to me, but it is true I could have clarified my stand earlier on "saffron terror".

    I am absolutely not bothered by the label saffron/ orange/yellow whatever attached. In fact I think its quite ok to describe hindutva terror by the saffron terror label.

    I could not get this read from your main post, there seemed to be some ambivalence ie. some of it seemed to be directed at PC too. This impression may have been reinforced by earlier commenters commending you on "buddhu chidu" and your reply.

    If this upsets you and you are making this categorical statement in clarification, I do appreciate it and withdraw any suggestion that you were criticizing Chidu.

    thanks,
    Jai
    PS: My ID gets reflected in different ways here for reasons I dont know.



    Posted by jaics to K I C K at 9/03/2010 05:45:00 PM

    ReplyDelete
  61. jai from what i have understood, i have agreed with you.

    i was splitting hairs on the internet-real world gap and saying how many hairs i support and don't. think you would have had enough of it.

    thanks for your patience really appreciate it.

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  62. yeah Buddu Chiddu!

    Saffron is sacred color for most of the Indians!

    Politicians are worst then people in mental lunatics.

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  63. jai i must appreciate the honesty in debunking evolution or whatever theory that supports discrimination. and yes i sometimes i have grouped you with ketan on the internet hypocrisy point. (i.e i have replied to stuff he had wrote earlier in his blog and comments)

    btw i have updated the thankfully bush is a guy post after ketan's comments.

    ReplyDelete
  64. Hey It shows you have written a new post , when i click i get this message
    Page not found
    Sorry, the page you were looking for in the blog K I C K does not exist.

    Anyway Please collect ur award thanks

    ReplyDelete
  65. bikram i wrote that akshay kumar sort of rap song, but it was not worth to be a post so posted it back as a comment. sorry for the inconvenience caused:)

    award!! on my way right away:)

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  66. Wise Donkey and Jai,

    My response was (obviously!) turning out very long, I have compiled it as a separate blog post (click).

    If WDM permits my publishing it here, I absolutely don't mind copy+pasting it as multiple (at least 7 to 8 long) parts.

    If you feel that would make the blog space too cluttered and irrelevant (as most of it is about color and other biases, and not PC or saffron terror), you can certainly respond there, provided you have inclination and energy!

    Thanks!

    ReplyDelete
  67. Unknown!!

    Sorry, forgot to add your ID in the previous comment; I have responded (very briefly) to your point also in that post itself that I have linked in the above comment.

    Thanks!

    ReplyDelete
  68. ketan i will leave the choice with you:) will be reading ur response now:)

    ReplyDelete
  69. i have replied to your post. to summarise to the folks here.
    If the bias for fair skin is genetic, ketan thinks i am closing the door by making the personal feel guilty and avoiding discussion.
    but while i agree anything and everything can be explored scientifically, i am not going to keep quite when i think something is stupid. whether its fairness or wealth when assessing someone as a spouse. if i did it, i would be a hypocrite in my eyes.

    i continue think to think fairness ads can be made more accountable. and i request those interested to imagine the before after images with one set of clothing and attitude and see if you prefer the fairer one or if its just the same. now most of the ads have a depressed drab dressed former and a smiling brightly dressed later.

    btw jai i hope the comments here would make you think not ALL persons prefer fairness. even if there is a degree of hypocrisy, surely not all those who spoke against it are hypocrites.

    ReplyDelete
  70. ketan this tweet by you -" It is those who say "terrorists have no religion", use the
    term 'Saffron terror' most gleefully. Obviously, saffron is just a color. :D" caused a tweet discussion between us and resulted in this post.

    maybe its out of context, but i am not convinced you wouldn't have complained if PC had said, hindu terror.

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  71. I dont like the num 74..making it 75..
    I read the post by Ketan,who explained really well..and was amazed by your comments..
    and this is my SAASHTANGA PRANAMAM for the comments you made there...it needs energy equivalent to a marathon..
    An insightful,informative discussion..enough to write a thesis.
    Thanks Ketan,WD & Jai

    ReplyDelete
  72. lol i think we were typing at same time.

    i hope you like 77:)

    i was lucky to get some time alone, so managed to reply to him:)

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  73. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  74. It almost looks like a crime to disagree with this post here when most people are all gaga about it. But, I disagree completely.

    It is important to understand why the term "Saffron Terror" came into being. It came into being to establish that these were "Hindu" religious men/women indulging in terrorism. The very origin of those words comes from an association of terrorism with religion.

    I am against association of terrorism with any word which links it to religion - like Islamic terror or saffron terror. Terrorists are terrorists - just that. If 5 people were running a terrorist mission called 'Project Saffron' and if they were termed saffron terrorists, it wouldnt be offensive to me. But, the term saffron terror was coined only because the terrorists were Hindu - now, that is disrespectful of my sentiments towards my religion and that of many others.

    How right would it be to call a terrorist act by some Christians as 'The terror of the cross'? Afterall, cross could mean a lot many things other than the cross Christians pray to, just like saffron could mean just another colour and have no reference to Hinduism. I strongly condemn the use of religious identities with terrorism.

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